Address by József Choli Daróczi,
Cluj, Romania, December
11-13, 1996
József Choli Daróczi is a Professor of Romology at the Teacher's College in Zsámbék, Hungary, an educator in the Kalyi Jag Roma vocational school, as well as an accomplished poet and translator.
The "School Success for Roma Children" meeting in Cluj, Romania, December 11-13, 1996, was sponsored by the Education Program Support Unit (EPSU) of the Open Society Institute, Budapest and the Cluj Branch of the Soros Foundation, Romania. The meeting was held for Soros Foundation education program staff. This address was transcribed by Heather Iliff, OSI Budapest, December 17, 1996.
I am one of the real Olah, meaning a Roma person who speaks Romanes. In my experience, I have seen that most of the people who are involved with Roma children are not Roma themselves. They are gadzo, or non-Roma, or white. One of the conclusions after years of work in this field, is that studying issues alone does not lead to results.
In thinking about education for Roma children, we must first ask what do we mean by "values" in Europe? Are European moral values in fact the values of Roma? I am convinced that Roma values are different and there are historic and cultural reasons for this.
When we tell a Roma child how they are to act in school, we hold for them the same expectations that we have for gadzo children. And, there are Roma children who will obey. But, of real value to a Roma child? In my experience, the answer is no. Roma children cannot incorporate the values learned, and less and less so. Such a rift between the Roma and the rest of society has developed that Roma children are not part of the society. They cannot use society's values in their every day life. If a Roma child is educated in the standard way and goes back to live inside the Roma community, he/she would starve. The life skills a Roma child needs are very different from the life skills of a gadzo child. The curriculum of a normal school does not allow a Roma child to function in society or learn the skills they need. As long as there is a rift in society between will continue to be problems in education. The European education system wants to create gadzos out of Roma children. Yet, if a Roma succeeds in school, they are not accepted into the gadzo society anyway.
"If we want Roma children to succeed in school, we must build our pedagogy around the needs of Roma children and get out of the box of trying to get the Roma child to fit into the traditional European model."
Before 1948, Roma people did not send their children to school, but they knew how to make a living. Today, Roma parents send their children to school for three reasons: 1) fear of reprisal from the government, 2) to receive economic aid, or 3) for baby-sitting. There is no real interest in learning. What is more important to a Roma parent is to what extent the child takes part in and becomes an active member of the community, and to what extent the child takes on the role assigned to him/her.
A Roma child in a Roma family is treated as a small adult. The only difference is the person is smaller. The child has full rights as a member of society and can participate in all family and community discussions. In school, they fell they should have a say in what happens at school. They are not used to asking for permission. If a child wants to talk in class or leave the class, they do as they would do at home. Immediately, conflicts arise between the Roma child and the institution of school. The Child does not want to go to school anymore, he thinks "the teacher hates me, she doesn't like Roma." Both the teacher and the child are right. The teacher is behaving according to the norms of their own society, but they don't know the culture of each others' societies. The teacher and child do not know how to recognize the conflict and realize they are on parallel tracks. The teacher realizes that the child is unmanageable and sends the child to special education classes. The fat is sealed. The teacher concludes that there will always be problems with Roma children. After a few failures, the teacher will give up (with a few exceptions). The child feels an aversion to going into this institution, because, he feels he is being picked on.
In this situation, two types of personalities emerge: the inactive, passive child and the aggressive angry one. Both types represent serious problems for the entire society. The passive, inactive person is just as serious a problem as the deviant one. Societies that deal with Roma educational issues draw a long list of conclusions. But we must get out of our box as educators and really take a look at Roma communities and accept them for who they are. If we want Roma children to succeed in school, we must build our pedagogy around the needs of Roma children and get out of the box of trying to get the Roma child to fit into the traditional European model.
"We must get to the point, through teacher training and other programs, where the two values [of Roma and non-Roma communities] can work together."
Roma children have no role models in positions in society. In 18th and 19th centuries, there was no written Roma tradition. In the 1970s in Hungary, a few artists and intellectuals began to write in Roma language, and Roma art began to emerge. Today there are 27 Roma writers in Hungary. Thirteen are members of the Hungarian Writers Association. Why were there only musicians up until now? Because the gadzo teacher is not a model for Roma children. Roma parents have always sent their children to work with musicians, and now they send them to work with writers. If more teachers were Roma, children would have role models.
There is a continuous tension between the child and the gadzo community. This is evident from the way the child's parents are treated. People take on a demeaning manner toward Roma. For example, when a Roma person enters the municipal government building to inquire on an issue, in Hungary they are often addressed using the informal form. The Roma person is immediately placed into the role of the inferior, and they will continue to interact in that role as an inferior. When a Roma family comes to a parent-teacher meeting, the Roma mother is so concerned about the role she is playing, she says "yes, teacher" to everything, and there is no communication happening. If the relationship were different -- and it is the role of the teacher to try to understand the Roma norms and culture -- miracles will happen.
"School must be a multi-cultural environment where Roma children feel safe to step in and be a part of the school community."
In the declaration of human rights, everyone has the right to live. And, there is a commandment in the Bible, "Thou shalt not steal." The Roma community cannot reconcile these two values. The Roma would starve if they try to live by that rule. For example, in a Hungarian village, of say, 650 inhabitants where 250 are Roma, there can be a situation of 100% unemployment among the Roma community. With odd jobs and begging, the other 400 habitants of the town cannot possibly support the 250 Roma living there. In order to live, in order to feed their families, Roma resort to stealing. The Roma have been completely marginalized and left out of the positive democratic changes that have happened in Eastern Europe. And, at the same time, many have been cut out of the benefits of the previous system. Where state-owned properties are being privatized, how many Roma people have been able to become owners? The majority of Roma have not managed to gain any property.
The Soros Foundations can give money, but it must be looked at as a complex integrated approach. Health, social issues, job training, all must be considered or also it's just throwing money out the window. We must show Roma people that it is worth it to live like gadzos. Roma are accused of not taking a role in helping themselves, but how can they be active if they don't understand how to? If we are going to work with the Roma community, we must do it as we would work with children: in basic steps that can be understood and built upon. In a peasant community in this region, the peasants are limited in the kinds of ways they can operate. But the Roma community is not even part of the peasant community. Peasants are part of the mainstream in that role, while the Roma lives outside, they are marginalized.
The first thing educators need to know and understand is what the Roma community is about. They must know and understand the values of the Roma community. They must understand the fact that the values of the Roma community and the gadzo community don't work together. We must get to the point, through teacher training and other programs, where the two values can work together. We must take the positive values of the Roma community and work them into the pedagogy. School must be a multi-cultural environment where Roma children feel safe to step in and be a part of the school community.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
1. What motivated you to become an educator?
I was afraid you would ask that! I have a complicated past. I was born in Romania, and as a child my parents moved to Hungary. We settled in a Romanian town, and my parents did not speak Hungarian. The surrounding villages were Hungarian, and the Romanians had similar problems as a minority. We were a minority within a minority.
When I left my village and went to Budapest, I wondered what was wrong with me. Why didn't I have any friends. I kept looking to myself, and I kept trying to prove myself. I talked to my teacher at gymnasium whom I showed my poetry. He asked if I was going on to the teachers college. Like a normal Gypsy talking to a gadzo, I nodded "of course, teacher college! That's what I'm going to do!"
I wanted to be Hungarian at teachers college, I realized it wasn't possible because of my skin colour. But there was no road back anymore.
My first job was in a school of 1500 students. I felt like a fly in the milk. Children would ask "is this a human being?" From a child it could by kind of sweet for a while. But the feeling when I talked to teachers -- they were astonished that I could put together a sentence in Hungarian; that it was possible that this Roma could be an educator. I thought I was stupid and I had to prove myself.
2. You spoke of the need for educators to understand Roma values. What are the values that you think are important for them to know?
Roma people, like all people, have values. We look at the values with different perspectives. For example, I will talk about love as a concept. In the Roma family, the relationships are more tightly knit than in European families. Roma parents are very close to their children and love them dearly. In most European cultures, we want children to grow up and be independent. In Roma families, there is not this break. Many generations will live together. The elders in a Roma community have every important role. Roma families do not discard their old people. I have never seen an old Roma person in an institution. The structure of family relationships is very different. There is a very strong community feeling. If they meet on the street, they have strong feeling that they belong together. Europeans tend to walk by each other.
This also applies financially. If I have it, you have it too. They share the wealth. Maybe this is why there is no private property. They will not let each other starve. In the community where I grew up, children were not allowed to starve. Bread was first distributed to children. Children are brought up by the community, not just the parents. In terms of their trade, and other areas.
One of the roles of the elders is storytelling to children. This is a positive value -- the literary and folk traditions. Positive values still exist in the Roma community and are fast disappearing in the European world.
Roma children have excellent gross motor skills -- to climb, make a fire, or cook. Although, they do not posses the fine motor skills like holding a pen. The practical aspects of life are learned early. These gifts could be built upon in the pedagogy.
3. How can these facts coexist with the fact that there are 50,000 Roma children in Romania who have been abandoned and institutionalized?
I was waiting for this question. In Hungary, we don't find old Roma people in institutions, but the institutions for children are full. Roma children are not deserted, they are taken away. The state (local governments) are given the function of child protectors. A gadzo woman from the state is given the responsibility of going into the family with a checklist of what a baby should have. How many square meters of space, how many shelves, a crib, etc. They conclude that the child is in danger and the child is taken away. Eighty percent of the children in the institutions are taken away from their parents.
But in Romania, I think some of the values you spoke of earlier have been lost.
In Hungary, there was a ruling in the 1960s that had three goals: a) to get rid of Roma hovels, b) to get Roma children in school, and c) to get jobs for Roma. When they eliminated the hovels, they eliminated the communities. When you disperse the communities, you lose the community values. Now, Roma are moving to more individual lifestyles. Roma girls are giving birth at ages 12 or 13, and they are no longer surrounded by a supportive community. The values are in trouble and the young Roma are lost. Young girls often bring their babies to institutions out of necessity. This is result of societal interventions.
4. Are there still Roma who are nomadic?
Not in Hungary, and none that fit the colourful stereotypes. Up until the 1920s, a lot of Roma were considered wanderers. The definition was that they were not registered anywhere and hand no citizenship. There are still reports of "travellers" in Northern England, but as far as I know, these travelling Roma do not exist in 'Eastern Europe. Most have citizenship and homes. I may get in a car and go somewhere, but I come back. Wanderers used to go and keep going.
5. You spoke of children being treated as small adults. What does that mean on a practical level? Does it mean that, if the family would move to a new apartment, they would ask the child if he agrees?
Exactly. But, it is not a matter of being asked, but the fact that in the discussion, the child gives opinions. Whether the child's opinion prevails is another question. It is not expected that a Roma child goes to bed at a certain hour. Its part of a discussion. This leads to a more serious issue -- it becomes a problem for the child to get up. There is no tradition of punctuality or time. When does he go to school? When he gets up. He may arrive at school during the third lesson. When the teacher asks, the child would say, "What? I got up, my mother went to the market, and I came here." The child models the behaviour of the parents -- the father does not go to work, the child does not go to school.